转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
相信什么就该拍什么
–贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
时间:2006年11月底
地点:台北诚品书店
《三峡好人》呈现了当初拍《小武》的能量
候：《三峡好人》跟纪录片《东》是不一样的？
贾：不一样。本来是先拍《东》，拍了十来天，又想拍故事片。
候：是因为接触到那地方，才开始有动力？
贾：对。因为拍纪录片的过程里，每天晚上睡觉都有好多剧情的想像。那地方、那空间、人的样子，都跟我们北方不一样，生存的压力也不一样。在北京或者山西，人的家里再穷也有一些家电，有一些箱子、柜子、家具，三峡是家徒四壁，基本上什么都没有。
候：我想像中也是这样，先接触，之后开始有想法。我在《小武》里看到你对演员、对题材的处理有个直觉，那是你累积出来的，但《小武》受到重视后，你想一股脑把想过的东西全呈现出来，就把人放到一边，专注到空间，形式上去，反而太用力、太着急了。不过到《三峡好人》又是活生生的人，是现实情境下的直接反应，这反应呈现了当初拍《小武》的能量。你变了，回到从前了。
贾：《小武》到《三峡好人》之间拍了三部片，我是有种负担感。《小武》里面，我特别关心人的生理性带来的感动，之后，基本上考虑人在历史、在人际关系里的位置，人的魅力少了一些。到三峡之后，阳光暴晒着我们，这对天气的直接反应都能帮我把丢失的东西找回来。特别是去了折迁的废墟，看到那里的人用手一块砖、一块砖拆，把那城市给拆得消失掉。镜头里的人感染了我，我在大都市里耗掉的野性、血性，回去一碰，又点着了。好像在创作上点了一个穴，原来死的穴道又奔腾起来。
候：所以创作光自已想像不够，还需要现实。我的情况跟你不一样。《海上花》之后，我等于是等人出题我来应。应题的意思就是，你不知道你现在想拍什么，也无所谓拍什么，但你有技艺在身、累积了非常多的东西，所以人家给个题目，你就剪载这个题目。从创作上来讲，这阶段也满有趣的。
生命印记，讲出来就有力量
贾：在我学习电影的过程里，《风柜来的人》给我很大的启发。九五年我在电影学院看完那部片之后整个人傻掉，因为我觉得亲切，不知道为什么象拍我老家的朋友一样，但它是讲台湾青年的故事。后来我明白一个东西，就是个人生命的印记、经验，把它讲述出来就有力量。我们这个文化里，特别我这一代，一出生就已经是文革，当时国内的艺术基本上就是传奇加通俗，这是革命文艺的基本要素。通俗是为了传递给最底层的人，传奇是为了没有日常生活、没有个人，只留一个大的寓言。像《白毛女》这种故事，讲一个女的在山洞里过了三十年，头发白了，最后共产党把她救出来……..中间一点日常生活、世俗生活都没有，跟个人的生命感受没有关系。但是看完《风柜来的人》之后，我觉得亲切、熟悉。后来看你的《悲情城市》，虽然“二.二八”那个事件我一点不明白，看的时候还是能吸进去，就像看书法一样。您的电影方法、叙事语言，我是有学习、传承的。
候：创作基本上跟你最早接触的东西有关，你的创作就从那里来。像我受文学影响很大，因为开始有自觉的时候，看的是陈映真的书。《将军族》、《铃铛花》、《山路》，讲的是白色恐怖时候，受国民党压制的人的状态，所以我对历史才产生一种角度、一种态度。但这时期对我来讲，过了。过了之后，我有兴趣的还是人本身。拍完《海上花》之后，我想回到现代，记录现代看人的角度，《千嬉曼波》、《咖啡时光》，到最近拍法国片《红气球》都是这样。
调节类型传统与抒情言志
候：近来我开始了解到，拍片除了兴趣之外，还有现实。现实就是世界电影的走向，这走向以戏剧性为主。但中国人讲究的不是说故事的from，是抒情言志的from，是意境，所以我们追求的美学跟现实中一般人能接受的东西不同。
贾：在中国也有这个问题，。从文明戏过来，中国人看电影的习惯就是看戏，电影是戏。一般普通大众看电影，戏剧性的要求特别高，戏剧的质量他不管，只要是戏剧他就喜欢，情节破绽百出他无所谓，只要是戏剧他就欢心。其他气质的电影很难跟这个传统对抗。
候：西方的电影传承自戏剧、舞台，这个传统太强大。就影像历史来说，默片时代还能突破戏剧传统，因它不需要对白，用影像叙事的方式非常自由。但有了声音之后，电影回归戏剧，。连编剧都延搅舞台编剧人才，重心完全在戏剧性上。这种情势下，你可以说，我要坚持属于我的叙事方式，这方式在古早的《诗经》里，在明志不在故事，但这要让现代人理解很难，因为他们已受西方戏剧影响太多。现在是这种趋势，没办法改变。不过，假使你理解这个form，还是能在这里找到空间，去调节戏剧传统与抒情言志的比例，这空间基本上就是东西融合了。
用最简单的方法， 讲最多的东西
贾：我觉得电影这个材料也不断受到新发明影响，比如说DVD，电子游戏、卫星电视。像我看台湾的电视，觉得丰富多彩，有各种案件、政治人物的冲突，整个社会已经那样戏剧化了，你怎么做电影呢？好像没必要看电影了。但我看一些导演也能找到方法把自已的意识结合到类型电影里，把自已的东西用类型来包装。毕竟类型元素有很多是很受欢迎的。
候：真正好的类型还是从真实出发的，最终要回到真实。
贾：我记得上次在北京，您谈到一个东西我印象很深刻，就是“用最简单的方法，讲最多的东西”。我自已的理解，所谓最简单的方法，就是去掉跟普通大众之间不必要的鸿沟。
候：对，就是直接面对。叙事的焦点啪嚓一下抓到，变成一种节奏感，反映你对事物观察的吸收跟反思。不过，我感觉“简单而深邃”很困难。简单，所以人人看得懂，但同时又意义深远，这不容易。
贾：简单就是形式上的直接吧。比如我们看一九四零年代末意大利新写实主义导演的作品，它们跟公众的关系就很密切，公众都很喜欢看，像《单车窃贼》这样一部影片，就证明公众接受的东西跟深邃内涵是不矛盾的。费里尼的《道路》也有容易被普通大众接受的部分。但总体来说，我们对电影主题和形式的考量，是有太多迷雾在里面。必须重新找到一个直接、简单的方法。
还原最初的简单心态
贾：您怎么看台湾新导演的作品？
候：他们从小看很多电影，所以一拍电影就迷失在电影里，变成拍“电影中的电影”，确切的生活和感受反而知道得不是太多，不清楚自已的位置。其实也不全是位置的问题，就是不够强悍，随时会在形式、内容上受到影像传统影响。要是够强悍，相信什么就该拍什么。
贾：这是一个普遍的问题。我开始工作的时候差不多是第五代导演开始转型的时候，在中国有很多纷纷扰扰的争论。那时在大陆，电影的文化价值被贬得一无是处，基本上就在强调工业的重要性，特别是投资多少、产出多少。我觉得悲哀，因为一部电影放映以后，人们不谈那电影本身要传达的东西，都围绕着谈跟产业有关的问题。所以我觉得做导演“有主体”很重要，要有一个强大的自已，不被其他东西影响。电影最初就是杂耍，杂耍就要有游戏感，从事这工作得为快感，不为太多背后的东西，还原最初的简单心态。这说起来简单，做起来难，像您刚说的，我也从《小武》到《三峡好人》才又重新找回这种感觉。
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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葬我于雪 » Blog Archive » 转帖：贾樟柯与侯孝贤的对谈
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