转帖:陈丹青谈电影

晶报:我知道您非常熟悉中外电影史的经典作品,也见您在很多场合下谈论电影、电视剧,这次很想和您系统聊聊对中国电影的认识和理解。您似乎对上世纪三四十年代的老电影特别推崇?
  
  陈丹青:三十年代的导演未必就比现在的导演更懂电影文化,他们都有一种非常健康活泼的幼稚,对电影的理解和实践非常直接,没有教条,没有扭曲。那个大时代对了:左翼美学,浪漫主义,新文化运动,当然,还有天然的市场意识——二十年代的中国电影一上来就是市场规律说了算——民国导演的身份、经历、体验、语境,都是对的,天时地利人和。
  
  晶报:可后来内地这块中国电影的传统断了,到香港去了。
  
  陈丹青:上海诞生了都市电影,五十年代拱手转给香港。“文革”后,第五代开了个新方向,第四代被忽视,很尴尬。第四代是1964年、1965 年左右电影学院毕业的,新中国自己培养的第一批导演,可刚出炉,“文革”开始了,十年荒废。他们的历练、学养其实比第五代深,但他们把上一代电影美学带到 “文革”后,才玩了几把,第五代就起来了。其实第四代几个电影都蛮好的,比如根据贾平凹小说改编的《野山》,还有《人生》,我很喜欢,《沙鸥》、《青春祭》、《北京你早》也好的,拍得正派,一五一十说故事。
  
  第四代上不比第三代,下不比第五代,夹在当中,怀疑自己到底对不对。八十年代谁都恐惧自己落后、不正确、不现代、不够世界性。第四代在当时多少有点过时了,索性老老实实走老路子也好,可是怕落伍,其实真能跟谢晋那么拍,也牛啊!
  
  晶报:正如您说的,艺术创作,有一股坚持自我和自信的“流氓气”很重要。第五代崛起,就正是因为他们在电影美学上的大胆变革。
  
  陈丹青:第五代崛起既不是大胆,也不是创新,而是“文革”太荒凉,一结束,他们赶上好时候——第一拨。所以他们是幸运的一代。我跟他们同龄嘛,要是我现在画出《西藏组画》,谁会留心?第五代虽然最早在国际上拿奖,其实在电影意识上到很晚才比较国际化、比较靠谱——他们到中年才明白电影就是票房,是娱乐,此前都把电影当成很严肃的文艺问题,当成大字眼。我们这代人全这样,我到现在改不了。
  
  但这也很难怪,八十年代中国哪有什么市场机制市场意识,任何文艺作品的推出方式是自上而下,跟以前差不多。到九十年代末市场议题铺开了,第五代开始拍大片,无论如何推动了中国电影的商业意识,大趋势对的。他们是先烈嘛!我不批评大片,中国大片的问题是推销方式,是扭曲的市场,大片本身没错,才刚开始拍,你指望他能怎样?咱们总得感谢先烈,它先把自己给毁了!
  
  第五代毕竟促成了转型,不然中国电影还是二战前后世界电影的老模式。但他们一直很难摆脱自己的问题:不善于叙述,对电影的理解太偏重影像,而对影像的细节又不敏感,不到位;我们这代所有作品背后的那个底子,还是无产阶级美学观,乍一看好像份量蛮重的样子,迷恋悲剧感、大事件、大道理,肤浅的哲学观,玩深沉,弄得愁眉苦脸的。但第五代有几部很好的,《秋菊打官司》、《蓝风筝》,还有李少红的《血色清晨》。她拍出事闯祸的感觉特别好。
  
  
  晶报:到第六代,又显然与第五代是截然不同的气质,第六代开创了独立电影的概念和运作方式,电影里开始关注大时代背景下的个体经验。您对他们的整体出现、作品整体体现出的美学特点和存在的问题怎么看?
  
  陈丹青:从张元开始,私人经验进入电影,早期像《妈妈》、《儿子》,包括《东宫西宫》,都好的。后来的《绿茶》、《看上去很美》,好像不如前面的。他本来可以弄得像蔡明亮,但张元是伤感一路,蔡明亮的基调是绝望,拍那么私密的个体经验,却有强度有深度。
  
  娄烨好像比较凶猛,至少他希望凶猛,《苏州河》有点感觉,还是有习作感,力度出不来。他不满足仅仅是私人经验,想找那种有痛感的,要爆发但爆发不出来的感觉。
  
  总体说,第六代欠缺野心,第五代又野心太大。贾樟柯不是第六代,年龄更小,他的秉赋内在凝练,对文学的把握比其他人强很多。他懂得同情和尊严,但不伤感。他一出道就接近侯孝贤一路,味道正,意大利人当年就是这样处理城市与人的败落题材的。他迷恋布列松,起点和趣味比第五、六代高。
  
  我到纽约后听说第五代起来,很期待能看到像贾樟柯那路电影,结果《黄土地》刚开始就一八路军,一陕北女孩,我一看,还是革命电影老符号,我宁可看老革命的老电影。
  
  谈姜文和冯小刚
  
  姜文无疑是这二十年来最有才华的导演。中国电影向市场转型,冯小刚居功甚伟。顾长卫被忽略了。
  
  晶报:中国当代电影人里,至少有两个人不太好划归到哪个代里,可又不得不提。一个姜文,一个冯小刚。按您的分法,都还是有“流氓”气的那类人。
  
  陈丹青:姜文无疑是二十年来最有才华的导演。《阳光灿烂的日子》和《鬼子来了》,创俩纪录:一个是“文革”的质感终于拍有一种生气!其他“文革”电影总是概念,不对。一是抗日战争的质感对了,占领者和被占领者的日常关系,那种悲剧中的喜剧感和荒谬感,那种生猛,感染力……第五代在寻找电影,想象电影,姜文直接给你电影。
  
  《太阳照常升起》没前两部成功。才华、张力、激情,都还在,几个片段也很精彩,但可能他太久没拍电影了,太当回事儿了,用心太重,前面两部多流畅。我也老吃这种亏,太存心太使劲的东西,结果没弄好。
  
  创作应该跟拉屎一样,别管那么多,刘小东他不管,画了再说,画着画着,忽然有一张特棒!要保持做,但电影不像画画,太难了。
  
  可是姜文哪怕小制作,游戏作品,也要保持做。他可能上了我们这代人的当,要牛逼!要重大!他绝对有才华、第一流,可“太阳”有点拧巴,至少我没被骗进去,“阳光灿烂”我看一分钟就给骗进去了,那是九十年代最精彩的电影。
  
  姜文有流氓气,但他其实很细腻很敏感的一个人,有知识分子倾向,他对音乐超级敏感。以我跟他接触,他想做有教养的绅士,只是模样摆脱不了银幕上那个硬汉。
  
  晶报:冯小刚呢?怎么看《集结号》?
  
  陈丹青:我佩服小刚,江湖流氓!他一上来就走大众路线,抓票房。中国的坏习惯是你弄艺术,你牛逼,你玩通俗,你就低一档——完全胡扯!没这回事!美术史绝大部分经典是订件,是活儿。他没有书生酸气,推动中国电影向市场化转型,小刚居功!电影本来就是给大家看的嘛,贺岁片一年一年拍,瞧着就越来越会拍了,然后他知道贺岁片老路子看烦了,就换汤药。
  
  我喜欢《集结号》,内地战争电影美学跨一大步,真实美学,子弹怎么打进去,血怎么喷出来,那个脏啊,血腥啊!虽然学斯皮尔伯格还没学到位,双方火力的方位、距离、切换,还不精确,对话也还有概念,但这一步终于走出去了。第二,这部电影的主题不是战争,而是战后待遇的问题。他将那种非常残酷的不公正和人道主义、爱国主义搅拌起来。
  
  小刚是个狡猾的人,电影必须狡猾。
  
  晶报:还有其他您佩服的电影人吗?
  
  陈丹青:当然有啊!顾长卫被忽略了。圈子里被高度关注的作品,往往并不怎样,好东西真的出来,又不太被关注了。八十年代我期待第五代的电影以为是《孔雀》、《立春》那样的电影,结果到新世纪才出现,想想也是,成熟需要过程。很久很久没看这么感动的电影,勾起我所有知青时代的记忆,那才是真的中国,早该有大量这样的电影。顾长卫已经懂得用荒谬和喜感表达哀痛,那种自卑,萎琐,疯狂的向往。
  
  我看了不断暴笑不断流泪。王彩玲的造型简直经典,太难忘了,欧洲人懂得这部电影,中国观众从来不喜欢赤裸裸的真实。文艺人喜欢,可是文艺人在中国就像王彩玲和那位同性恋在小城里一样孤立。那位同性恋只有几笔,写得好,演得好,处理得好,全片靠他提升到电影的世界性境界:在监狱里他踮起脚来,然后双手伸给狱警,等着戴手铐。
  
  谈艺术与时代之关联
  
  理想主义时代在全球范围结束了。消费时代不出英雄。中国的问题是双重的,一个是商业化逼上来,一个是体制中的老疙瘩。
  
  晶报:您之所以这么赞扬“流氓”,是因为觉得现在大家都太乖,我看您和韩寒在《零点风云》里有言:上海现在太乖了,其实上海人从前很不买账的。显然,“太乖”在您看来已经是一种群体性、社会性现象。从艺术创造层面来说,为什么现在的时代这么不培养“流氓”?或者说,不容易出大师了?
  
  陈丹青:全世界的问题是商业化。过度精致的、体制化的商业文明毁了上世纪六七十年代最好的那股势头。费里尼、帕索里尼、贝托鲁奇、安东尼奥尼,这样的大虫现在没有了。
  
  理想主义时代在全球范围结束了,消费时代开始。消费时代不出英雄,不会有疯狂的艺术家,各种经验越来越平面化。它会出一些干净的作品,很好玩,但命根子短。中国的问题是双重的,一个是商业化逼上来,一个是体制中的老疙瘩。
  
  改革越深入,难度越大。譬如电影分级制一旦实行,不是问题解决,而是问题刚开始。你一分级,小电影怎么办?成人杂志能不能上市?然后成人业又怎么办?太多问题跟在后面。电影局官员也在尝试改革、改进,可走到边上了,跨不跨过去?
  
  相对西方阵痛式的改革疗法,中国人懂渐进,审慎,这么大国家,是对的,不能急,可是文艺创作受牵制。你怎能要求天才“渐进”?“审慎”?
  
  我沮丧什么?就是我发现那么多年轻艺术家,聪明,有前途,赶上好时候,可就是野心太有限,野性太少。能成功、能卖几个盘,开心死了。我所谓的 “野心”不是指拿大奖,而是要做大事,做英雄。理想主义包括英雄情结。现在的年轻人终于有了空间,可能性应该比我们大多了,可是不疯狂,不拼命了。

This entry was posted on 星期六, 01月 2nd, 2010 at 11:10 下午 and is filed under 转帖. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

84 Responses to “转帖:陈丹青谈电影”

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  14. Fashion perpetuates the image of the slender woman being the ideal feminine and can sometimes have significantly detrimental effects. Due to the mass production of clothing, it has become easier for the fashion industry to encourage women to be slender (Macdonald, 1995, p208). Many of the most fashionable garments are not made larger than a woman’s Australian size fourteen. This encourages women to diet and exercise in order to lose weight, a trend also encouraged by the many advertisements involving slender women. One disturbing result of society’s fascination with being thin has been the rise in eating disorders, including anorexia (Macdonald, 1995, p208). In Australia’s November 2004 issue of Cosmopolitan an article was run entitled ‘Anorexia for Sale’. This article discussed Mary Kate Olson, a well known actress, and her public struggle with Anorexia Nervosa. Images of Olsen and other famous women who appear to be unhealthily thin, such a Kate Moss, have been used on websites known as ‘pro ana’ sites, that is, websites supporting anorexia as a ‘lifestyle choice’ as opposed to an illness (Percival, 2004, p62). Many of these sites have begun to sell ‘ana bracelets’ and ‘ana necklaces’ which are a means of identifying other anorexics and which serve as a reminder not to eat. This jewellery has proven quite popular within the anorexic community (Percival, 2004, p62). This is an extreme example of fashion (or in this case accessories) being used to specifically propagate the idea of being thin. On the other hand clothing can also be used to raise awareness of eating disorders and encourage women not to go so far. T shirts with the slogan ‘Save Mary Kate’ and a drawing of her emaciated figure were released with just this intention (Percival, 2004, p62). Released when Mary Kate began her rehabilitation, the emaciated drawing on the t shirts is far from attractive and draws attention to her bones and the unnaturalness of being so thin. The words ‘Save Mary Kate’ could be read in one of two ways however, they could refer to the fact that she is need of help, thus constructing her as a victim, or they could be referring to the desirability of her image and a wish that she remain so thin, thus the implication could be ‘Save Mary Kate from the rehabilitation clinic’. This second reading is supported by the image itself, in which she is smiling and returning the gaze of the viewer. This subverts the intended message that she is a victim.

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  17. High heeled shoes, like the corset, are an example of fashion supporting the female gender identity by constricting and binding women. The narrow toed high heel shoe that has been so popular in recent years, forces the foot and ankle into an unnatural position, as well as restricting the toes. The heel places the foot at an angle, making the legs look longer and more elegant and drawing attention to the ankle (which has long been associated with physical attraction) (Lurie, 1992, p227). This angle also forces the woman to ’strut’ to some extent in order to walk. The unnatural position inevitably makes standing and walking for any length of time painful as well as making running at any speed an impossibility. Any woman in heels attempting to outrun a man is certain to fail, thus reaffirming mans position of dominance. Yet high heeled shoes are extremely popular and are considered quite stylish, even being worn with jeans (Lurie, 1992, p227). This example in particular highlights femininity as a construction being based on appearance not physical ability. The appearance of a long leg is considered superior to being able to actually utilize it. This unhealthy focus on women’s appearance rather than their physical ability and health has been perpetrated by the fashion industry for decades. One of the dominant messages that fashion conveys is that women should be thin (Macdonald, 1995, p201).

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    Whilst fashion may try to subvert or construct gender identities, it may simply support social ideals already in place. As Malcom Barnard writes in his book Fashion as Communication, “Signs are only meaningful on the basis of their relations to all other signs” (1996, p156). In this way fashion can only convey a meaning when coupled with other signs (particularly the body itself), and as such cannot construct a gendered identity of its own accord. In order for clothing to be a signifier of a gender identity, that gender identity must already be constructed in order to give fashion its meaning. In which case, fashion is not constructing gender identities; it is reflecting and reinforcing them. Not all fashions have been accepted by society, the most obvious examples being skirts and the colour pink not being acceptable for men (Lurie, 1992, p214). Some designers, like Jennifer Minniti, have attempted to promote skirts and dresses as a male alternative; however such designs have not succeeded in the mainstream (Shreve, 1998). This is likely due to them not conforming to society’s expectations of gender identities. Men in skirts are still considered to be cross dressing, and as such skirts remain signifiers of femininity. Gender identity also comprises more than appearance. Gesture, behaviour and social standing all contribute to a person’s gender identity, and whilst fashion can attempt to draw on or hide these signifiers it cannot do so completely.

  19. Madonna has been a ’sex symbol’ for decades, with her streamlined, slim, healthy body and attractive blonde image conforming to the feminine ideal. She has become a loaded sign in herself. In this way, when she makes the corset visible it becomes fetishised. The revealing of undergarments is already a sexual image, but by coupling it with a sexual body this effect is enhanced (Lurie, 1992, p6). She also does not appear uncomfortable in the garment, and can move easily about the stage, thus indicating that if one conforms to this stereotype then they will achieve some element of freedom. Similarly the cone shaped breasts become objects of sexual desire by drawing attention to her breasts in a non maternal light, making them the most eye catching thing about the entire garment. The costume is completed with fish net stockings, an item which conjures images of promiscuous women. To add to this her hair is tied up in a style reminiscent of Barbra Eden’s in I Dream of Jeannie, in which Jeannie calls Major Nelson (played by Larry Hagman) ‘Master’ (I Dream of Jeannie, 1965 1970). This combination of signifiers serves to reinforce the feminine stereotype through Jean Paul Gaultier’s corset, rather than subverting the feminine ideal. In this costume Madonna becomes the fetishised subject of the male gaze. The duality of the garment is a clear indicator of the various ways in which fashion and dress can be read, as well as the way it ultimately still supports the constructed female gender identity despite trying to subvert it. It also shows that the reading of fashion can be influenced by the body and any pre existing signs which a garment or image may refer to. At times these references are clearly apparent.

  20. Fashion can certainly be used to parody, subvert and deconstruct gender identities (particularly the feminine), however, in the mainstream, it can only ever reflect the social conscious behind it. If society is not ready for men to wear skirts, then skirts will not be bought by the majority of men. Whilst designers like Jean Paul Gaultier can attempt to deconstruct gender stereotypes through fashion, many of these subversions can still be read as supporting the distinction between gender identities. Fashion and dress is influenced by both the body itself and the range of signs that it refers to, making it difficult to determine where fashion ends and social consciousness begins.

  21. The ‘gaze’ plays a significant role in the maintenance of the male/female binary and as such the separation of gender identities. The ‘gaze’ (that is, the act of looking at and objectifying the opposite sex) is considered predominantly masculine, with many images of women in the media being constructed for the male audience (Barnard, 1996, p140). However when a man is the subject of the gaze the binary is not destroyed, as merely reversing the act of ‘looking’ and being ‘looked at’ does not alter the active/passive, male/female binary. These must be transcended in order to begin breaking down the distinction between gender identities (Barnard, 1996, p140). As such fashion, by encouraging the male gaze and helping to define masculine from feminine is supporting the male/female binary. Cross dressing is one way of making it especially clear that this male/female binary exists.

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  23. A woman wearing men’s clothing does not conform to the feminine ideal and as such is recognisably subverting it. The fact that this subversion is identifiable highlights the gendered nature of the fashion industry and the way in which it supports society’s belief in the feminine being separate from the masculine. If gender identity is learnt, then by choosing our own clothes we reflect how well we have learnt to be masculine or feminine. For cross dressers fashion is a means of either constructing a gendered identity different to the one expected of them or parodying the constructed nature of gender itself.

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